Discussion:
I want to use Laser to cut a thin metal connection inside of a Vacumm Tube Any suggestions Appreciated
(too old to reply)
John Cohen
2016-12-27 02:14:21 UTC
Permalink
The vacuum tubes are 26HU5 and 36LW6.

Both vacuum tubes have an internal connection between the cathode & screen.

I noticed Laser engravers on Ebay and the heads are sold separately.

I would like to use these tubes in Grounded Grid configuration. Vacuum tubes operated in this manner the screen is grounded and the cathode is excited.


Cannot do that with these tubes due to this visible from the outside of the tube

internal connection. The wire connection internally is very thin. Maybe a low

power Laser might just cut it.

Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of these Laser heads might do it.


Any suggestions help appreciated.

Best John
Phil Hobbs
2016-12-27 14:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cohen
The vacuum tubes are 26HU5 and 36LW6.
Both vacuum tubes have an internal connection between the cathode & screen.
I noticed Laser engravers on Ebay and the heads are sold separately.
I would like to use these tubes in Grounded Grid configuration.
Vacuum tubes operated in this manner the screen is grounded and the
cathode is excited.
Cannot do that with these tubes due to this visible from the outside of the tube
internal connection. The wire connection internally is very thin. Maybe a low
power Laser might just cut it.
Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of these Laser heads might do it.
Any suggestions help appreciated.
Best John
I cross-posted this to sci.electronics.design because there are some old
time tube guys there.

Doing that with a laser will be difficult and dangerous for an amateur,
and then you still have the problem of how to ground the screen, which
would then be floating with no external connection, right?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
John Cohen
2016-12-27 16:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by John Cohen
The vacuum tubes are 26HU5 and 36LW6.
Both vacuum tubes have an internal connection between the cathode & screen.
I noticed Laser engravers on Ebay and the heads are sold separately.
I would like to use these tubes in Grounded Grid configuration.
Vacuum tubes operated in this manner the screen is grounded and the
cathode is excited.
Cannot do that with these tubes due to this visible from the outside of the tube
internal connection. The wire connection internally is very thin. Maybe a low
power Laser might just cut it.
Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of these Laser heads might do it.
Any suggestions help appreciated.
Best John
I cross-posted this to sci.electronics.design because there are some old
time tube guys there.
Doing that with a laser will be difficult and dangerous for an amateur,
and then you still have the problem of how to ground the screen, which
would then be floating with no external connection, right?
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Tauno Voipio
2016-12-27 16:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by John Cohen
The vacuum tubes are 26HU5 and 36LW6.
Both vacuum tubes have an internal connection between the cathode & screen.
I noticed Laser engravers on Ebay and the heads are sold separately.
I would like to use these tubes in Grounded Grid configuration.
Vacuum tubes operated in this manner the screen is grounded and the
cathode is excited.
Cannot do that with these tubes due to this visible from the outside of the tube
internal connection. The wire connection internally is very thin. Maybe a low
power Laser might just cut it.
Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of these Laser heads might do it.
Any suggestions help appreciated.
Best John
I cross-posted this to sci.electronics.design because there are some old
time tube guys there.
Doing that with a laser will be difficult and dangerous for an amateur,
and then you still have the problem of how to ground the screen, which
would then be floating with no external connection, right?
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
The grid connected to the cathode is not the screen grid, but the
suppressor. It is not a good idea to cut it off, as the tube may
then self-destruct with secondary emission fro the screen grid.

Your tube is *not* suited for grounded-grid operation. There are
tetrodes which are used in grounded-grid configuration, with either
the normal voltage on screen or screen and control grid tied together.
--
-TV
Tim Wescott
2016-12-28 03:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by John Cohen
The vacuum tubes are 26HU5 and 36LW6.
Both vacuum tubes have an internal connection between the cathode & screen.
I noticed Laser engravers on Ebay and the heads are sold separately.
I would like to use these tubes in Grounded Grid configuration. Vacuum
tubes operated in this manner the screen is grounded and the cathode is
excited.
Cannot do that with these tubes due to this visible from the outside of the tube
internal connection. The wire connection internally is very thin. Maybe a low
power Laser might just cut it.
Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of these Laser heads might do it.
Any suggestions help appreciated.
Best John
I cross-posted this to sci.electronics.design because there are some old
time tube guys there.
Doing that with a laser will be difficult and dangerous for an amateur,
and then you still have the problem of how to ground the screen, which
would then be floating with no external connection, right?
First, assuming for the moment that the data sheet shows the cathode/
screen coming out to more than one pin, and that the data sheet indicates
that the connection between cathode and screen is "breakable" into two
independent circuits, you cannot assume that the real tube is constructed
that way -- even if you had a magic way of breaking a wire inside the
tube, there's no guarantee that you'd be able to get the connections you
want.

Second, by and far away the most common laser for cutting is the CO2
laser, and I'm pretty sure that glass is opaque at CO2 laser wavelengths
-- this means that not only could you not get through to the interior, if
you tried you'd cut the envelope.

Even if you _could_ find a way to cut things inside the envelope (using
lasers and methods that would be exceedingly dangerous to your vision,
and that of anyone around you), you'd vaporise a part of the wire, and
the stuff that came off would plate itself on to anything nearby. You
may end up with a viable tube in the end, but I suspect not.

You'd be in for much less work and expense if you just find a suitable
tube for your experiments, and buy some.
--
Tim Wescott
Control systems, embedded software and circuit design
I'm looking for work! See my website if you're interested
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Robert Baer
2016-12-29 21:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by John Cohen
The vacuum tubes are 26HU5 and 36LW6.
Both vacuum tubes have an internal connection between the cathode&
screen.
I noticed Laser engravers on Ebay and the heads are sold separately.
I would like to use these tubes in Grounded Grid configuration. Vacuum
tubes operated in this manner the screen is grounded and the cathode is
excited.
Cannot do that with these tubes due to this visible from the outside of the tube
internal connection. The wire connection internally is very thin. Maybe a low
power Laser might just cut it.
Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of these Laser heads might do it.
Any suggestions help appreciated.
Best John
I cross-posted this to sci.electronics.design because there are some old
time tube guys there.
Doing that with a laser will be difficult and dangerous for an amateur,
and then you still have the problem of how to ground the screen, which
would then be floating with no external connection, right?
First, assuming for the moment that the data sheet shows the cathode/
screen coming out to more than one pin, and that the data sheet indicates
that the connection between cathode and screen is "breakable" into two
independent circuits, you cannot assume that the real tube is constructed
that way -- even if you had a magic way of breaking a wire inside the
tube, there's no guarantee that you'd be able to get the connections you
want.
Second, by and far away the most common laser for cutting is the CO2
laser, and I'm pretty sure that glass is opaque at CO2 laser wavelengths
-- this means that not only could you not get through to the interior, if
you tried you'd cut the envelope.
Even if you _could_ find a way to cut things inside the envelope (using
lasers and methods that would be exceedingly dangerous to your vision,
and that of anyone around you), you'd vaporise a part of the wire, and
the stuff that came off would plate itself on to anything nearby. You
may end up with a viable tube in the end, but I suspect not.
You'd be in for much less work and expense if you just find a suitable
tube for your experiments, and buy some.
...or build your own.

BTW,what is wrong with using the good old acorn tubes made for
grounded grid?
Tim Williams
2016-12-28 06:19:07 UTC
Permalink
1. That's suppressor (as Tauno noted), or even more accurately, beam forming
plates.

The transconductance to the suppressor is approximately zero. It's only of
significance when it comes to capacitance. (Which, obviously, is quite
important for GG operation at radio frequencies!)

2. I doubt you're going to get /anything/ of advantage out of either of
those tubes, by going GG. Even if the suppressor feedback weren't a burden.

That's the whole point of having a tetrode (or beam tetrode, or pentode)!

3. If you're operating at such high frequencies that you can't go with GK,
you're at the same frequencies where inductance screws you over. And these
sweeps don't even have multiple pin connections -- like most novar and
compactrons do (often, "undocumented" pins; find out by inspection). You're
barking up the wrong tree, forcing these tubes into this service. :-(

4. For tubes that should work higher, look for the short, late model sweeps
like 17GV5 and whatnot (B&W TV deflection). The electrode structure is
physically short, while the leads are the same length and size as any other
type; therefore the self-resonant frequency will be higher. Because, hey,
if you're trying to force >50MHz out of the poor things, every little bit
helps.

And they're cheaper, so you can use more of them, in parallel (or in any
other combination, if you like..), to get the same total plate dissipation.

5. As for actually burning up connections? Geez... As the other Tim W.
mentioned, CO2, umm, "ain't gonna cut it". You could maybe use a SS diode
laser in the near-IR or red spectrum (mind, the glass may be opaque in NIR
too), but you still have to solve for refraction due to the glass envelope,
which is a cylinder for one thing, but usually a bit wavy or lumpy besides.

Worst of all, vaporizing the connection will do two things:
a. Huge release of trapped gas. They bake them out during manufacture, but
I doubt they're 100% gas-free. They don't get them meltingly-hot. (Fair
point: if nickel does desorb fully at red or orange hot, then this won't be
a problem after all!)
b. That metal has to go somewhere. If you go carefully and melt it down,
you can get it to blob up, which will be better than vaporizing it outright.

Also, note that, in a vacuum, there's nothing to clear away melted gunk. It
won't magically *burn* a clean hole through the metal -- real laser cutters
use compressed air to blow away, and burn -- combust -- the heated material!

Probably, some evaporation will still occur, whether due to thin webs
getting superheated, or simple evaporation off the surface of the blobs.
(Checking, it seems nickel's vapor pressure, at the melting point, is
~fractional pascals, which is quite a lot higher than the pressure in a
normal vacuum tube. So it will evaporate noticeably.)

Any evaporated metal will deposit, well, pretty much anywhere it can,
line-of-sight. It'll go on the mica insulator (don't put the poor tube into
a TV receiver again!), it'll go on the envelope (maybe breaking it, because
that will absorb laser power?), it'll go on the grid and cathode (through
any holes nearby), contaminating them...

The surest way to proceed, would be to do it under maintained vacuum. Weld
an exhaust tube onto the glass nipple and pump it down. Ah, but at this
point, you might as well cut the whole thing open, go in there with diagonal
cutters and cut the damned thing by hand (sorry it's not as cool as Frikken
Lazers ;-) ), and seal it back up and re-pump (and re-getter--oh right,
you'll need to replace the getter too, and flash it later).

But at least if you're going to that trouble, you can put an actually-useful
base on it, like a compactron, and add more leads to the critical
electrodes.

Reworking a sweep tube... well... that'd be one hell of a *hack*, that's for
sure. :D

Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by John Cohen
The vacuum tubes are 26HU5 and 36LW6.
Both vacuum tubes have an internal connection between the cathode & screen.
I noticed Laser engravers on Ebay and the heads are sold separately.
I would like to use these tubes in Grounded Grid configuration.
Vacuum tubes operated in this manner the screen is grounded and the
cathode is excited.
Cannot do that with these tubes due to this visible from the outside of the tube
internal connection. The wire connection internally is very thin. Maybe a low
power Laser might just cut it.
Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of these Laser heads might do it.
Any suggestions help appreciated.
Best John
I cross-posted this to sci.electronics.design because there are some old
time tube guys there.
Doing that with a laser will be difficult and dangerous for an amateur,
and then you still have the problem of how to ground the screen, which
would then be floating with no external connection, right?
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Winfield Hill
2016-12-28 19:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Phil Hobbs wrote...
Post by John Cohen
Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of
these Laser heads might do it.
Just to add, we have a 35W CO2 laser cutter,
and usually light is simply reflected when
encountering metal, defeating efforts to cut.
--
Thanks,
- Win
Steve Wilson
2016-12-28 20:05:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winfield Hill
Phil Hobbs wrote...
Post by John Cohen
Lasers are used to engrave metal. It seems one of these Laser heads might do it.
Just to add, we have a 35W CO2 laser cutter,
and usually light is simply reflected when
encountering metal, defeating efforts to cut.
150 Watt CO2 Metal Cutting Laser by KERN LASERS


co2 laser cutting metal, metal laser cutting, 150W co2 laser cut
metal, FL-1325M


The pipe cutting is most impressive:

Kern Laser Systems Pipe Cutting with 150W CO2 Laser

http://www.kernlasers.com Kern Lasers offers a pipe cutting laser
system capable of cutting up to 5" diameter steel pipes. A 150W and
400W version are available. The 150W will cut up to 0.080" walls and
the 400W will cut up to 1/8" walls. Knock outs, end profiles and
joint cutting are just a few of the projects this machine is capable
of performing. Take it one step further and etch serial numbers
around the pipe before it is cut.



The nice thing about laser cutting is the lack of distortion in the cuts.
I think the only other way to get the same result is with EDM machining,
but this is much slower.
John Cohen
2016-12-27 17:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Wow ! Thanks for posting back so quick !

In the past by mistake. I have forgotten to ground the screens when re-tubing a GG amplifier with a different Sweep tube.

The change necessitated changing the Hard wiring underneath the socket to different tube pins. Or a new socket. No difference was observed with the screen grounded or not ? Perhaps because they are actually operating as triodes?

Ground means 0 voltage. Obviously. If the screen is not connected to anything. It is at 0 volts.

I would just like to try. I have over a hundred 36LW6 some 26LW6 and 26HU5.

Walking across the street or connecting a main line from a pole to a house is dangerous if U do not pay Attention and use protective measures.

My assumption is. The internal tie point will break off rather quickly. The getter inside the tube will take care of any gas released.

Some of the Engraving lasers on ebay can engrave metal. They do not use gas or anything else except a mount & psu.

What I need to know is : Do I need 500 mill watts ? or 1000 or 1600 or greater to do the job ?


Nothing ventured nothing gained. I have thought about this for years. Every time I look at these boxes of NOS tubes.

Again thank you for your response.

Figure. Persons who have used lasers to engrave metal have a good idea of the power required to etch metal.

Obviously. This internal connection is very thin. No thicker than etching a piece of lets say stainless steel or chromed metal.

Best John
Phil Hobbs
2016-12-27 17:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cohen
Wow ! Thanks for posting back so quick !
In the past by mistake. I have forgotten to ground the screens when
re-tubing a GG amplifier with a different Sweep tube.
The change necessitated changing the Hard wiring underneath the
socket to different tube pins. Or a new socket. No difference was
observed with the screen grounded or not ? Perhaps because they are
actually operating as triodes?
Ground means 0 voltage. Obviously. If the screen is not connected to
anything. It is at 0 volts.
I would just like to try. I have over a hundred 36LW6 some 26LW6 and 26HU5.
Walking across the street or connecting a main line from a pole to a
house is dangerous if U do not pay Attention and use protective
measures.
My assumption is. The internal tie point will break off rather
quickly. The getter inside the tube will take care of any gas
released.
Some of the Engraving lasers on ebay can engrave metal. They do not
use gas or anything else except a mount & psu.
What I need to know is : Do I need 500 mill watts ? or 1000 or 1600
or greater to do the job ?
Nothing ventured nothing gained. I have thought about this for years.
Every time I look at these boxes of NOS tubes.
Again thank you for your response.
Figure. Persons who have used lasers to engrave metal have a good
idea of the power required to etch metal.
Obviously. This internal connection is very thin. No thicker than
etching a piece of lets say stainless steel or chromed metal.
Best John
Tauno is almost certainly posting via sci.electronics.design, so you
should repost your reply there. If you had a real newsreader like Agent
or Thunderbird instead of Google Groups, you could post to more than one
group at a time. (This is Usenet not Google.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
t***@gmail.com
2016-12-27 18:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cohen
Ground means 0 voltage. Obviously. If the screen is not connected to anything. It is at 0 volts.
yikes
jules
2016-12-28 11:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cohen
Some of the Engraving lasers on ebay can engrave metal. They do not use gas or anything else except a mount & psu.
What I need to know is : Do I need 500 mill watts ? or 1000 or 1600 or greater to do the job ?
Hello John,

I use to work on 2kW CO2 and other lasers.
I have seen a 20W Ar (green) laser cutting a razor blade after 10
seconds with direct output around 1 mm. That is 6 W/mm2 power density
and razor blade is a bad friend for laser (high reflection).
In your question you understand that you must pass the power "In" the
tube through the glass. Or glass is not a good friend in this problem.
Cutting with laser need power density.
If you send power density directly through the glass, you loose and
brake it by thermal shock I think. Then you need to have a big laser
beam (low density) before the glass and concentrate it on the
connection. At this time the glass is a part of the optical combination.
As Tim said glass is not suited for CO2 laser. Engraving system usually
used CO2 - 50W in free air. Lens are made in ZnSe, laser wavelength is
10.6µm. Focal length around "some" inch, a short one is good for high
power density (Power diameter is around f(lens) x laser divergence) but
bad for clean working. Standard are 2, 3 or 5".
2" with 1 mrad laser div. give a 80 µm laser spot at 2" (50 mm). With
50W you get 200W/mm2.
In France we use 500 W to engrave a 1x1mm, by flash, Champagne bottles
against counterfeiting.

You can first play with a red pointer, to understand how to go "through"
the glass as a friend. You will need a laser expander to make "perhaps"
a 10 to 30 mm diameter before the glass and focus it in the tube with a
lens, a short one (in glass 1 or 2" focal length), could be good. The
biggest is the laser diameter on the glass is the best start. In fact
the "good" focal length must be (around) the one from external tube
glass plus inside travel to the connection to cut.

Happy new "tubes"

Richard
Rob
2016-12-27 20:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cohen
The vacuum tubes are 26HU5 and 36LW6.
Both vacuum tubes have an internal connection between the cathode & screen.
I noticed Laser engravers on Ebay and the heads are sold separately.
I would like to use these tubes in Grounded Grid configuration. Vacuum tubes operated in this manner the screen is grounded and the cathode is excited.
Your tubes are probably penthodes?
For grounded-grid operation you need a triode or tetrode.
John Cohen
2016-12-28 01:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Jeepers.

Suppressor fine. AyaYy. I have been playing with Sweep tube Amplifiers since I was

15 years old. All Sweep tubes were made for the horizontal output of color and

Black & white televisions. Hams discovered they could be used in RF service back in the sixty's.

Some audiophiles have discovered the astonishing power of these tubes. The famous Macintosh audio Amplifier uses 8 6lq6's.

They are all Pentodes. The output impedance of 26HU5 & 26LW6/36LW6 and other specs are similar to 8908 & compactron copy M-2057.

8950 is not similar to M-2057. It is exactly a 13volt version of 6LX6. 26LX6 is a 26volt 8950.

Now. I appreciate some info on LASERS. Specifically what's available on Ebay.

In order to separate the suppressor grid from the cathode.

I have been building re-tubing repairing these amps for a long time.

My personal collection is large. All the Maco's including the KW the Pow, The D'A Warrior, J.B. 4000 with 4 500Zs.
Nearly all the original tube Palomar's, Kris, Varmints and so forth. Pride 1x 250 ceramic tube.

Not interested in a discussion about tetrodes-pentodes yada yada .AB1,AB2,B,C, Screen modulated Suppressor modulated ad nausea.

Just info on what I need as a Laser to give it a try. Please do not Post if U do not know anything about what I need as far as a Laser to accomplish my desire.

I am sixty years old. Not 15. These tubes are usually run in AB1 GG. The D&A's AB1 driver AB2 finals. Most Maco's are screen modulated. Palomar's Kriss GG AB1

As I mentioned before. They are run basically as Triodes. Let me make my own mistakes.

Just the info of what power laser I need.

Best The " Puppet Master "

Thank you
John Cohen
2016-12-28 15:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Thank U very much for your Post ! Richard. This information I will digest.

This is just what I was looking for. A starting point. I have several in-expensive

pointers in green & red. I play with my cats with one of them. I use the green

laser pointer when I am replacing capacitors on vintage CB radios which are

worth the time to restore. I made a jig. The pointer lights up the area of the

circuit board I need to de-solder the connections of the electrolytic.

The frequency band is 11 Meters and Free Band frequency's to 10 Meter & towards

12 meters. These Sweeps will work fine. I can use them for RF as they are.

However. The circuit will be much more complicated than GG AB1 class. Also

Power output will be less than in GG AB1 or GG AB2. I have over 300 36LW6. 50

or so 26HU5 & over 50 26LW6. 17GV5. Most likely have a few. Will check it to

see if it has at least 25W plate dissipation.

Again thank you Richard and the other posters. Where their is a will. Their is

a way ! Lasers Hmmm interesting !

Best
Bob H
2016-12-31 17:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Where are you located? I have a 2J Q-switched pulsed ruby laser that'll probably do the job.
John Cohen
2017-01-01 01:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob H
Where are you located? I have a 2J Q-switched pulsed ruby laser that'll probably do the job.
Luckily I never opted for a Tattoo. Nor do I have severe discoloration on my face.

Thanks anyway.3.5W to 5W Watt etching laser might be the ticket.
Bob H
2017-01-01 16:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cohen
Post by Bob H
Where are you located? I have a 2J Q-switched pulsed ruby laser that'll probably do the job.
Luckily I never opted for a Tattoo. Nor do I have severe discoloration on my face.
Thanks anyway.3.5W to 5W Watt etching laser might be the ticket.
Apparently you've never seen a demo of a ruby laser poking a hole through a razor blade. The first application of lasers in industry was to use a ruby laser for drilling holes in diamond wire dies. Use of ruby lasers is extensive for doing exactly what you describe, through glass. Maybe you should read a bit more about the use of lasers in industry, and from sources other than Wikipedia, before the next time you display such cynical ignorance.
c***@gmail.com
2017-01-01 20:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cohen
The wire connection internally is very thin. Maybe a low
power Laser might just cut it.
First, I need to state that I have very little knowledge of vacuum tubes. But, to throw out an idea that no one has mentioned yet...

Are there external connections that would permit you to apply enough current to simply burn that connection? I sort of doubt it, and expect that the potential external connections may also have connections that would tend to be blown in the process.

-Joe
Mario
2017-01-02 16:01:02 UTC
Permalink
John,
A 20W Nd:YAG pulsed fiber coupled probably will do the job, output beam from the fiber is a few micron. Since this laser emits at 1064 nm you will need a second low power visible laser to see where you are going to burn/cut among beam combining and focusing optics.
You can make a try with some grid wire from a not working valve before the real work.
Hope this could help.
Cheers
Mario

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